Denzity Insights Transcript: Chinese Real Estate Market Under COVID-19 with Alicia Mou

Chinese Real Estate Market Under COVID-19 with Alicia Mou

Chinese Real Estate Market Under COVID-19 with Alicia Mou| Denzity Insights

Connect with Alicia Mou:

LinkedIn: https://hk.linkedin.com/in/aliciamou

Real estate is not only one of the most important sectors of economy, but it also plays a crucial role in our lives. COVID-19 has put a break on many countries’ real estate industry. 

In today’s episode, alongside Alicia Mou, we explore the effect of the global pandemic on Chinese real estate market and more.

  • How did COVID-19 have any impact on the Greater Bay Area real estate market?
  • What measures did the PRC government take?
  • Has there been any changes in the overall market price?
  • What should you look out for as a foreign investor?
  • What alternatives are being utilized because of the travel restrictions?

As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.

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Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show. Enjoy!

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Darren Wong: So hey, Alicia, thanks for joining in. 

Alicia Mou: Hi, Darren. 

Darren: Hey. So thanks for joining the show. And then First of all, please it’d be great if you could introduce yourself to the audience.

Alicia: Sure. Hi, everyone. My name is Alicia. I am the senior legal counsel at import Anna, and also the head of governance and also one of the cofounders of Prop tech Institute. So InfraRed NF is a joint venture real estate private equity fund between InfraRed Capital Partners, which is formerly HSBC specialist investments, and for Vervain resources, which was formerly an app in China. So our focus is on mezzanine financing and also value add investing in Greater China. So born and raised in Hong Kong, Real Estate has always been a very big part of my life and career. So prior to joining InfraRed NF, I was a solicitor at Woo Kwan Lee & Lo where I worked closely with many prominent Hong Kong based real estate developers, such as Cheung Kong Hutchison in their restructuring, and also New World in their privatization of New World China land.

Darren: Actually now think on it, I have known you for so long, almost like 10 years now. This is a really impressive list of things you have done already. Wow. That made me kind of insecure about my own career. But then this is exciting because like, I’ve always wanted to know about Chinese real estate. So we have talked about this before is that like, you know, you’re just someone that’s really close in the market. So it’d be great to have your one two and then tell the audience more about what’s going on and then something that they should be aware of? So the first question I have is that so something that even I don’t understand, really, for Chinese real estate markets, right? There is different zoning, what does that even mean?

Alicia: Sure, actually, this is a really big theme, and the Chinese real estate market in these past few years. And this is the concept of mega city clusters, or sometimes called mega hubs. This is typically defined as a group of two or more adjacent metropolitan cities. And a well known example to many of our Hong Kong viewers would probably be the Pearl River Delta greater Bay Area, which Hong Kong is a part of. The other city clusters that people may have heard of is the jjj (jing-jin-Ji), a bit of a mouthful out there, which is the bay bay region, so the northern part of China, the Yangtze River Delta, so that’s basically Shanghai and the surrounding region. And maybe less well known as the western parts, doesn’t have a very fancy name coining it yet, but sometimes people refer to the CC like Chongqing and Chengdu, which are the anchor cities of the western part of China. And also the central part of China with Wuhan actually as its core.

So it is particularly interesting, actually, when you look at China at night on a NASA satellite map, you see the city clusters I mentioned just now are the ones that shine the most brightly at night. So meaning they’re the most active cities, despite already after office hours time, so they’re the most active cities. So sometimes in terms of investment thesis, our focus is definitely on these mega city clusters. And we sometimes say we’re chasing the stars.

Darren: That’s cool. I hope I can find that.

Alicia: So actually, I just want to build on to that. I think the investing in these mega city clusters would continue to grow. And the really recent, the two sessions held in Beijing the “Lianghui,” it was announced that the PRC government will continue to drive, and leverage the role of these leading cities and city clusters and driving the overall development of the PRC economy and also driving urbanization. And from that increasing employment and also economic growth. And because this theme is continually mentioned, I really do believe that this theme urbanization and investing in Mega city clusters will continue to be a driving force in the Chinese real estate market.

Darren: That’s good. That’s very informative, because I get there’s a lot of things going on. So it was something that I was curious about too, because we’re in Hong Kong, and we’ve heard a lot of things about the greater Bay Area, and in the future, the potential of it. So I kind of want to pick your brain about like— what do you think of the real estate market for the greater Bay Area? And also, do you think it’s like, too early, is it too overly dramatic? And what are the activities like at the moment?

Alicia: Well, definitely, there’s a lot of interest surrounding the greater Bay Area. I think in particular, people based in Hong Kong were particularly interested in seeing how we could gain exposure to the Chinese real estate market in somewhat more familiar areas, because it’s a bit closer to us. So um, well definitely for our companies and areas that we are actively looking into. And we actually see a lot of activities there already. Whether one of them is tuition or even from private buyers. So off the 11 cities that’s from part of the greater Bay Area, I think, definitely Shenzhen is the hottest and I think the city that most investors would feel most comfortable with being a tier one city, and with also a lot of growth. In fact, this may be a surprise, but despite the COVID-19 situation, in April, the residential prices in Shenzhen continue to hike up by 10%

Darren: Wow. 10% Really?

Alicia: Yeah, yeah. So you would imagine like everything would haul or slow down or plummet with the COVID-19 situation in China, but I think in core tier one cities, the growth is so strong the demand is still there. But other cities that I think investors are also actively looking into would be Foshan, Zhongshan, and Zhuhai. I think these are all very familiar names with Hong Kong investors. And what particularly drives interest and also, on course, this whole developments of the greater Bay Area is infrastructure. So you notice all the cities I mentioned just now they’re very well connected to one another, especially connected to the stronger, higher tier cities like Shenzhen, whether by high speed rail or other railways, bridges, whatnot, and the continued growth of these infrastructures. I think these are the kind of the fundamentals that’s really popping the growth of the greater Bay. area, and I personally feel quite optimistic about the growth of this adequate area.

Darren: That’s cool. So going back a little bit to when you said something that in my mind was like, is Shenzhen having a 10% increase? Does that mean the asking price went up to 10% or the transaction went up by 10%?I just want to make sure I remember that.

Alicia: From my understanding it’s more B, I think it’s the overall market price. Partially apart from the I think demand is one thing, but also it’s actually slightly influenced by government policy. Because of the COVID-19 situation, as you may know, the government is unleashing a lot of measures to help many sectors of the economy, including developers, and there’s a bit of speculation there, where people think that “Oh, once these policies are in place, the price would spike even more.” And so it just kind of drove up the prices.

Darren: That’s crazy for someone who doesn’t understand Chinese real estate and understands real estate in a way. That’s crazy. That’s impressive. So speaking of virus, right, as you mentioned just now, how does the virus really affect the Chinese real estate market? And I know that that’s something that a lot of people talk about. But I want to know, like your point of view on that too.

Alicia: Sure. Well, definitely the COVID-19 situation was a shock to everyone. And, of course, China was at the epicenter of this at the very beginning of the global pandemic, and it has been severely impacted. So, one thing that I heard recently that I really like, and I think is applicable to these times is “the only certainty is uncertainty.” And even in the two sessions that I mentioned just now, China, the government has said that they won’t be setting GDP targets this year, which is the first time that the government has done so since 1990. 

Of course, this is a period of great uncertainty for everyone and also especially Chinese market. In my experience, the activity restrictions and also the market sentiment in the earlier phase of the pandemic meant that the sales have slowed down, construction of progress of projects have almost halted. And even a lot of your resources are restricted to working from home but actually not a lot of companies, or at least at all levels of the company, have very sophisticated IP infrastructure. So in our experience, in dealing with PRC developers, we do find that we just can’t reach the guys on the ground or etc. We can only reach management. 

So I think overall, there’s definitely a lot of impact on the Chinese real estate market here. And not only the operation perspective, but also the outbreak and also the shutdown has placed immense pressure on the real estate developers’ cash flows and their ability to practice operations. This is largely due to the slowdown in sales and also delays in obtaining permits from the government. But state support has played a very important role in averting an immediate crash of these developers. 

Basically, the government has told all the local, state bank lenders to support businesses and help them and we have a lot of the developers are actually able to get extensions on loans, and also even press waivers. So for offshore lenders like ourselves, From discussions with our peers and also advisors, we find that not a lot of lenders are actually calling loans and like grabbing assets but rather they take a wait and see approach and how to take a more supportive and just have helping kind of roll out with their counterparties.

Darren: I see. Wow. So since then right, how has the Chinese real estate market been recovered since the virus situation being under control so far.

Alicia: Yep. Well, activities have begun to pick up and I see some residential sales flowing in and as I mentioned, just now the prices in Shenzhen are like crazy given all the circumstances, of course, but all our activities definitely have not fully recovered to pre virus pace but we still, we still see things picking up from our personal experience like for example local blog real estate type of transactions, we see site visits come in. So local potential buyers and sellers, they’re happy to meet and all that. But I guess for foreign investors, there’s still the travel restrictions. And I guess there’s a bit of worry about traveling so there’s less. So like for them, it’d be harder to contact on site dB. But then I think people are looking around this, for example, by doing video tours. So really, you could help in this respect to and in terms of prices, generally stable, if not growing. So, this is how we see, how the market has recovered recently.

Darren: Okay, wow. What do you see as a more long term impact of the virus situation?

Alicia: Yeah, well, I personally think that the COVID-19 situation will accelerate sector consolidation. Worry will become more of a, like a survival of the fittest. With higher quality and well established companies, developers being able to weather the storm, whereas the smaller players in the market may not be able to make it or get eaten up by the bigger players. Because I think the bigger players generally have better credibility. And also, they buy their power banks in terms of their lending, whereas these smaller guys, they’ve always struggled already, they’re already the banks don’t really like to lend to them so they often have to resort to financing by trust companies or other non banking sources and they’re paying in capital cost at like 8% to 15%. And with this crunch in the market, generally from the lending side of things, and also the cash flow, we probably would think that the bigger players would find this as an open opportunity to consolidate and take over some of the land banks from these smaller guys and really, you could see this sector consolidating. So I think the wheels of motion have already been set in place prior to the COVID-19 situation. But this virus really just increased that pace of the winds of evolution of the market.

Darren: I see. So what if smaller guys like me, you know, still brave enough to go into the Chinese real estate markets, what are some things to be aware, you know, like people like me like, or other investors I tend to make when investing in Chinese market.

Alicia: Yeah, I think for foreign investors, the first thing would be repatriation, you need to think about what currency are you investing into China? Are you for example, using US dollars, Hong Kong dollars? So for us, as an US dollar investor we always use an offer transaction structure. So, for example, when we buy a property, we would buy it through an offshore company rather than say buying an asset or buying a PRC holding company or for a lending business, we also always lend to an offshore entity like a Hong Kong company or BVI or Cayman company, which ultimately have presence in the PRC through its subsidiaries. So, yeah this is something that we’re very careful of. So if you’re a foreign investor, I think this is one of the big things that you need to be aware of.

Darren: Hmm, okay. So, are there any tips or tricks that you could share with our audience in terms of doing property sales and purchase in China because I think I remember this is something that you work really closely with in your company. So it would be great to have your insights on that.

Alicia: Sure, in terms of acquiring a property, the biggest thing you need to be aware of is title. So for what you have in mind for the property, make sure you have the right title for it, for example, if you want to make it a hotel, then make sure it has the hotel title or it has commercial title, or if it’s an office, make sure it has a commercial title, etc. So this is the first thing that you need to check. And the other thing I think you need to— oh and in relation to title is that if you think that you need to convert the title, you may need to make sure you have local counterparties that have the experience of taking up title conversion in that are  area, because they would have experience with dealing with the local officials there and their processes. And this is something that’s very important. So you need to be aware of that. 

As a seller, what you really care about is that the buyer pays you right, so I think the general I guess tip, is to make sure you get the buyer to show you a funds proof or even better is to get them to pay you in earnest money. So in Chinese it’s “____”so like get them involved and then make them put a commitment to it. I think this is not just China, I think it’s something universal, but it’s what I see a lot in our Chinese deals.

And whether you’re a buyer or seller, you would definitely want to do counterparty due diligence to make sure you’re not dealing with a fraudulent party. And I think maybe for companies, you would also have a part of compliance and the whole governance process. I think one thing that I found useful in doing deals in China is an app called Tianyancha. So this app would give you a brief overview of a company, director or shareholder or individuals— some basic information, especially whether this person has some lawsuits or blacklisted, for example, the (失信被執行人名單). For example, if they have some credibility issues. I think this would be an initial gloss of like, who this kind of party is, and if we want to dig deeper. But I think ultimately, of course, the best thing is to hire a third party investigator to look into this. There are a lot of companies that do these things but I think as a first step Tianyancha app is quite a useful app that we use.

Darren: Yeah, so is Tianyancha accessible for anyone because it seems like an universal credit score kind of checking then. Am I correct? for Chinese?

Alicia: Yeah, you can just download it off the App Store. Yeah it’s very easy, and I think you pay a very small fee if you want to access more information. But otherwise, I think just basic information is pretty much for free. I think one thing I would like to add is that in our experience, sometimes a lot of counterparties if they want to hide the ultimate beneficial owner, they would do so through a very complicated web of shareholdings and also nominees, like in Chinese authority. So that’s when ultimately, you want to find a third party investigator firm to look into this for you.

Darren: Hmm, I see. It seems like we’re doing advertising for the app. I think we should have some advertising fee for that. Well, so because like, obviously, like we’ve known each other for a long time, I kind of want the audience to know your background, because talking about due diligence is your background coming up to what you do right now. I think it’s all linked together. So it’d be great to tell the audience more about your role in the firm and what does is it like to be in your role?

Alicia: Sure. Well, as I mentioned, I’m the senior legal counsel at InfraRed NF. So my role is really to provide legal coverage to the full lifecycle of transactions from the deal origination to negotiation and execution, and also an asset management type of work.

Apart from the transaction specific, my role is also quite broad in a sense that also looks internally so from the fund establishment, from corporate to corporate governance and to compliance I also look into those as well.

Darren: I see. So how’s it like from serving other professional real estate firms from the outside to working at one in the moment? How do you feel? What’s something that if someone for example, someone that looked at this and went like “hey, I kind of want to get into your role. How’s it like? I just want to know.

Alicia:Well, I think definitely being in the real estate firm brings me much closer to the deal making process, which is something that I really, really enjoy. And also you get to appreciate more of the nuances of the commercial dynamics and also bring it closer to the market. And I think this for me has been a very fruitful experience. I think when I was in private practice, my main clients are a lot of big Hong Kong developers as I mentioned. So back then I served a lot of companies apart from real estate transaction needs, also capital market transactions. So why is it now that I’m in a private equity fund? Well, the type of transactions are slightly different in a sense and for me, especially the debt side is something that was new. So overall, I think it also brought me to a different spectrum of real estate and the type of companies that there are in this field. But overall it was very interesting. And I really enjoyed my current role.

Darren: That’s great, that’s great. Have your experience, working in the professional real estate firm, made you change the way you look at real estate? 

Alicia: Not really, in a sense that one thing that attracted me to a real estate is that no matter how our needs as human beings change, whether we move to co working, co living, or working from home, I think as a human being, at least for the foreseeable future, we definitely need roofs over our head. So I think that sense, you always need real estate, and which in turn means that there will always be demand for this product, no matter how it develops, and transforms. And I think being from a law firm to a real estate firm didn’t really change that view for me. But being in the real estate firm means I’m much closer to the market than being the legal services provider. So which is a personal growth and personal professional development that I really appreciate.

Darren: That’s good. I remember a while at the property tech prop tech institute a video that we did with a brand consultant Tracy Ho. And she said that one thing people keep forgetting is that real estate is something that’s so close to our daily life. I mean, literally, we live in one, we interact with one. People forget how emotional it is. And he keep forgetting the industry because a lot of times we just see it as like stocks here and there. Back and forth. Trade, it’s yours now, it’s the other persons now. So when you talk about your thoughts about it, it reminded me of that moment as well. It’s kind of cool. Yeah. So what kind of take away would you like the audience to have from this video?

Alicia: In terms of takeaways, I think, um, well, let’s talk about the market side first. So I personally think that mega hubs would continue to be a key investment theme in the Chinese real estate market. And in terms of the COVID-19 situation, this has significantly impacted the Chinese real estate market, but it’s looking like it’s recovering. And from a long term perspective, perhaps it will accelerate the consolidation of the market. And in terms of tips and tricks for investing in China, for foreign investors, repatriation is a key risk that you should look into. And always be careful who your counterparty is, and be careful of your land title. And with a fear of this sounding more and more like an add for Tianyancha, you can use Tianyancha as an initial step of counterparty due diligence.

Darren: Tianyancha if you hear it, please give us advertising cost, that’d be great. Actually, um, I mean, like, I actually have so many things I want to ask you and I thought maybe next time we will have like a long discussion or mezzanine loan because something that a lot people don’t understand is why would real estate needs like different types of loan, and even our side projects project prop tech Institute I want to talk more about that next time. And something before that, if people want to reach out to you to find and talk to you more about real estate or you know about this whole industry and so on, how would you suggest people to find out more about you and talk to you about it?

Alicia: They can just give me a message over LinkedIn and Darren, if maybe you could share the link to my LinkedIn

Darren: Sure, that’d be great. Yeah, I really want you to join next time again, because I think just now like even for the first like 10 minutes I got so much out of it. Like wow, this is something that we wish at Denzity insights where everyone could share ideas. We just want to know what’s the best investment or best kind of insights out there. So I really want to say thank you folks for joining in. And I hope the audience took a lot out of this.

Alicia: Thank you Darren. Thanks for having me. 

Darren: All right, until next time then. I’ll see you next time. Thank you.

Alicia: See you next time! Bye.

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Darren :嘿,Alicia,感謝您的加入。

Alicia Mou:嗨,Darren 。

Darren :嘿。因此,感謝您參加演出。然後,首先,如果您能向觀眾介紹自己,那就太好了。

Alicia:好的。嗨,大家好。我叫Alicia。我是import Anna的高級法律顧問,還是治理負責人,還是Prop技術學院的聯合創始人之一。因此,InfraRed NF是InfraRed Capital Partners和Vervain Resources的合資房地產房地產私募基金,InfraRed Capital Partners是前HSBC的專業投資,而Vervain資源以前是在中國的應用程序。因此,我們的重點是夾層融資以及大中華區的增值投資。房地產在香港出生並長大,一直是我生活和事業的重要組成部分。因此,在加入InfraRed NF之前,我曾在Woo Kwan Lee&Lo擔任律師,在那裡我與許多香港著名房地產開發商(例如長江實業和記黃埔重組)以及New World私有化New World進行了密切合作。中國土地。

Darren :實際上,我已經認識你很久了,差不多十年前。這是您已經完成的事情的令人印象深刻的清單。哇。這使我對自己的職業感到不安全。但這令人興奮,因為就像我一直想了解中國房地產一樣。因此,我們之前談論過的是,您只是一個真正接近市場的人。因此,擁有兩個孩子,然後告訴聽眾更多有關正在發生的事情以及他們應該注意的事情,將是很棒的。所以我要問的第一個問題是,對於中國房地產市場,我什至不了解,對嗎?有不同的分區,這甚至意味著什麼?

Alicia:當然,這確實是一個非常重要的主題,這是過去幾年中的中國房地產市場。這就是巨型城市群的概念,有時也稱為巨型樞紐。通常將其定義為一組兩個或多個相鄰的大城市。對於我們許多香港觀眾來說,眾所周知的例子可能就是珠江三角洲大灣區,而香港是其中的一部分。人們可能聽說過的其他城市群是jjj(jing-jin-Ji),那裡有點大嘴,就是海灣地區,所以中國的北部地區是長江三角洲,所以基本上是上海及周邊地區。也許還不太為人所知的西部地區,但它的名字並沒有花哨的名字,但有時人們將CC稱為重慶和成都,這是中國西部的主要城市。也是以武漢為核心的中國中部地區。

因此,特別有趣的是,實際上,當您在美國國家航空航天局(NASA)衛星地圖上夜間觀察中國時,您會看到我剛才提到的城市群是夜間發光最亮的城市群。因此,這意味著它們是最活躍的城市,儘管已經在辦公時間以外,所以它們是最活躍的城市。因此,有時就投資論點而言,我們的重點肯定是這些巨型城市群。我們有時說我們在追星。

Darren :太酷了。我希望我能找到。

Alicia:實際上,我只是想在此基礎上繼續前進。我認為在這些巨型城市群中的投資將繼續增長。以及最近在北京舉行的兩屆會議“兩會”,宣布中國政府將繼續推動和利用這些主要城市和城市群的作用,並推動中國經濟的整體發展,以及推動城市化。從那增加的就業以及經濟增長中。而且由於這個主題不斷被提及,我確實相信這個主題的城市化和對巨型城市群的投資將繼續成為中國房地產市場的推動力。

Darren :很好。這非常有用,因為我知道有很多事情要做。因此,我也對此感到好奇,因為我們在香港,我們已經聽到了有關大灣區的很多事情,以及未來的潛力。因此,我有點想打動您的大腦-您如何看待大灣區的房地產市場?而且,您是否認為為時過早,是否太過戲劇化?現在的活動是怎樣的?

Alicia:好的,當然,大灣區周圍有很多利益。我認為,尤其是香港居民對看到我們如何在一些較為熟悉的領域接觸中國房地產市場特別感興趣,因為它離我們有點近。所以,對於我們正在積極研究的公司和領域,這無疑是很不錯的。實際上,我們已經看到了很多活動。其中之一是學費,甚至是私人購買者。因此,在大灣區部分地區的11個城市中,我認為深圳絕對是最熱的城市,我認為大多數投資者最願意成為一級城市並擁有大量增長的城市。實際上,這可能令人驚訝,但是儘管發生了COVID-19的情況,但在4月份,深圳的住宅價格仍繼續上漲10%

Darren :哇。 10%真的嗎?

Alicia:是的,是的。因此,您會想像,隨著中國COVID-19的出現,一切都會拖延,放緩或暴跌,但我認為在核心一線城市,增長是如此強勁,需求仍然存在。但是我認為投資者也積極研究的其他城市是佛山,中山和珠海。我認為這些都是香港投資者非常熟悉的名字。尤其是引起人們興趣的,當然還有大灣區的整個發展都是基礎設施。因此,您會注意到我剛才提到的所有城市之間都非常緊密地聯繫在一起,特別是與諸如深圳之類的更強大,更高層次的城市相連接,無論是通過高鐵還是其他鐵路,橋樑,其他方式,以及這些基礎設施。我認為這些是真正跳出大灣區增長的基本面。區域,我個人對這個適當區域的增長感到非常樂觀。

Darren :太酷了。那麼,回想一下您剛才所說的深圳會增加10%嗎?這是否意味著要價上漲了10%或交易上漲了10%?我只是想確保自己記得這一點。

Alicia:根據我的理解,它是B,我認為這是整體市場價格。我認為需求部分是一回事,但實際上受政府政策的影響很小。如您所知,由於COVID-19的情況,政府正在採取許多措施來幫助許多經濟領域,包括開發商,而且那裡有些猜測,人們認為,“哦,一旦這些政策到位後,價格將進一步飆升。”因此,這只是推高了價格。

Darren :對於那些不了解中國房地產並且以某種方式了解房地產的人來說,這太瘋狂了。太瘋狂了。這很讓人佩服。所以說到病毒,對,正如您剛才提到的,該病毒如何真正影響中國房地產市場?我知道很多人都在談論這一點。但是我也想知道,也喜歡您的觀點。

Alicia:好的。好吧,COVID-19的情況肯定令所有人震驚。當然,在全球大流行初期,中國就處於這一中心,並且受到了嚴重的影響。因此,我最近聽到的一件事我真的很喜歡,並且我認為適用於這些時代的事情是“唯一的確定性就是不確定性”。甚至在我剛才提到的兩屆會議上,中國政府都表示他們今年不會制定GDP目標,這是政府自1990年以來首次這樣做。

當然,對於每個人,尤其是中國市場來說,這是一個充滿不確定性的時期。以我的經驗,大流行初期的活動限制以及市場情緒意味著銷售放緩,項目進度的建設幾乎停止了。甚至您的很多資源都只能在家里工作,但實際上,不是很多公司,或者至少在公司的各個級別,都沒有非常複雜的IP基礎架構。因此,根據我們的經驗,在與中國開發商打交道時,我們確實發現我們根本無法接觸到當地人等。我們只能接觸到管理層。

因此,我認為總體而言,這裡的中國房地產市場肯定會受到很大影響。不僅從經營的角度來看,而且爆發和停產也給房地產開發商的現金流量和他們的實踐能力施加了巨大壓力。這在很大程度上是由於銷售放緩,以及從政府獲得許可證的延誤。但是國家支持在避免這些開發人員立即崩潰方面發揮了非常重要的作用。

基本上,政府已告知所有當地的州立銀行放款人以支持企業並為他們提供幫助,我們有很多開發商實際上能夠獲得貸款的延期,甚至免除新聞。因此,對於像我們這樣的離岸貸方,從與同行和顧問的討論中我們發現,並不是很多貸方實際上都在呼籲貸款並喜歡資產收購,而是他們採取了觀望的態度,以及如何採取更加支持和公正的態度。與交易對手一起推出有幫助。

Darren :我明白了。哇。所以從那時起,到目前為止,自病毒形勢得到控制以來,中國房地產市場如何恢復。

Alicia:是的。好吧,活動開始增多,正如我所提到的,我看到一些住宅銷售流入,當然,考慮到所有情況,目前深圳的房價簡直是瘋了,但我們的所有活動肯定還沒有完全恢復為病毒感染前的狀態。步伐,但是我們仍然會從個人經驗中發現事情,例如本地博客房地產類型的交易,我們看到了網站訪問。因此,潛在的本地買家和賣家,他們很高興見到這些。但是我想對於外國投資者來說,仍然存在旅行限制。而且我猜想對於旅行有些擔心,所以這裡的交通更少。因此,像他們一樣,在現場dB上很難聯繫。但是後來我認為人們正在例如通過視頻瀏覽來解決這個問題。因此,實際上,您可以在價格方面就價格方面提供幫助,如果價格不上漲,則價格通常會保持穩定。因此,這就是我們的看法,最近市場已經恢復。

Darren :好的,哇。您認為該病毒情況對長期影響如何?

Alicia:是的,我個人認為COVID-19的情況將加速行業整合。就像優勝劣汰一樣,憂慮也會越來越多。有了更高質量和信譽良好的公司,開發人員就能夠度過難關,而市場上較小的參與者可能無法做到,或者被較大的參與者吞噬。因為我認為更大的參與者通常具有更好的信譽。而且,他們以貸款的方式購買了電力銀行,而這些小傢伙們一直在掙扎,他們已經是銀行不願向他們藉錢的人,所以他們常常不得不依靠信託公司或其他非銀行來源,他們支付的資本成本約為8%至15%。鑑於市場的緊縮,通常是從貸款方面以及現金流方面,我們可能會認為較大的參與者會發現這是一個合併的機會,可以從較小的參與者那里合並並接管部分土地儲備。伙計們,實際上,您可以看到該行業正在整合。因此,我認為在COVID-19出現之前,已經設置好了運動輪。但是,這種病毒確實增加了市場發展的步伐。

Darren :我明白了。那麼,如果像我這樣的小傢伙們仍然足夠勇敢地進入中國房地產市場,那麼有什麼需要注意的事情,比如像我這樣的人,或者我傾向於投資的其他投資者,應該知道中國市場。

Alicia:是的,我認為對於外國投資者來說,第一件事就是遣送回國,您需要考慮您在中國投資哪種貨幣?例如,您使用美元,港元嗎?因此,對於我們來說,作為美元投資者,我們始終使用要約交易結構。因此,例如,當我們購買房地產時,我們會通過一家離岸公司購買它,而不是說購買資產或購買一家中國控股公司或從事貸款業務,我們也總是向香港公司等離岸實體貸款或英屬維爾京群島或開曼公司,最終通過其子公司在中國開展業務。所以,是的,這是我們非常小心的事情。因此,如果您是外國投資者,我認為這是您需要意識到的重要事情之一。

Darren :嗯,好的。因此,在中國進行房地產銷售和購買方面,您可以與聽眾分享任何技巧或竅門,因為我想我記得這與您在公司中緊密合作。因此,擁有您的見解將是很棒的。

Alicia:當然,就購置房產而言,您需要了解的最大事情就是所有權。因此,對於您要考慮的財產,請確保您擁有正確的名稱,例如,如果您想將其設置為酒店,請確保其具有酒店名稱或商業名稱,或者辦公室,請確保它具有商業名稱等。因此,這是您需要檢查的第一件事。我認為還需要做的另一件事-哦,與標題有關,如果您認為需要轉換標題,則可能需要確保您的本地交易對手具有進行標題轉換的經驗。區域,因為他們將有與當地官員和他們的程序打交道的經驗。這是非常重要的。因此,您需要意識到這一點。

作為賣方,您真正關心的是買方向您付款,因此,我想我想提示的一般情況是,確保您讓買方向您展示資金證明,甚至更好的是讓他們向您付款認真的錢。因此,在中文中,它是“ ____”,就像讓他們參與其中,然後使他們對此作出承諾。我認為這不僅是中國,我認為這是普遍的,但這也是我在中國交易中看到的很多東西。

而且,無論您是買家還是賣家,您都絕對希望進行交易對手的盡職調查,以確保您不與欺詐方打交道。我認為也許對於公司而言,您還將擁有合規性和整個治理流程的一部分。我認為我發現在中國進行交易有用的一件事是一個名為“天眼茶”的應用程序。因此,該應用程序將為您提供公司,董事或股東或個人的簡要概述-一些基本信息,尤其是此人是否受到某些訴訟或列入黑名單,例如(失信被執行人名單)。例如,如果他們有一些信譽問題。我認為這將是這樣的聚會的最初印象,如果我們想更深入地了解,這是什麼樣的聚會。但我認為,最終最好的辦法是聘請第三方調查員對此進行研究。有很多公司都在做這些事情,但我認為第一步,Tianyancha應用程序是我們使用的非常有用的應用程序。

Darren :是的,任何人都可以使用“天眼茶”,因為那時看來這似乎是一種普遍的信用評分。我對麼?中文?

Alicia:是的,您可以從App Store下載它。是的,這很容易,如果您想獲取更多信息,我想您只需支付很少的費用。但除此之外,我認為基本信息幾乎是免費的。我認為我想補充的一件事是,根據我們的經驗,有時很多對手方如果想隱藏最終的實益所有者,他們會通過非常複雜的股權網和被提名人網(例如中國當局)來做到這一點。因此,到了那時,您最終想找到一家第三方調查公司來為您進行調查。

Darren :嗯,我明白了。似乎我們正在為該應用做廣告。我認為我們應該為此支付一些廣告費。好吧,因為很顯然,就像我們彼此認識很久一樣,我有點想讓聽眾知道您的背景,因為談論盡職調查是指您的背景會隨著您現在的工作而變化。我認為這都是聯繫在一起的。因此,很高興告訴聽眾更多關於您在公司中的角色的信息,而擔任您的角色又是什麼感覺呢?

Alicia:好的。好吧,正如我提到的,我是InfraRed NF的高級法律顧問。因此,我的職責實際上是為從交易發起到談判和執行的整個交易生命週期提供法律保障,以及資產管理類型的工作。

除了特定的交易,我的職責範圍也很廣泛,從基金設立,公司治理,公司治理到合規性等方面,我也在內部進行研究。

Darren :我明白了。那麼,從外部為其他專業房地產公司提供服務到此刻工作,感覺如何?你覺得怎麼樣?例如,如果有人看著這個,然後像“嘿,我有點想成為你的角色。那是什麼樣?我只想知道。”

Alicia:好吧,我認為進入房地產公司肯定會讓我更接近交易過程,這是我非常非常喜歡的事情。此外,您還將欣賞到更多商業動態的細微差別,並將其拉近與市場的距離。我認為這對我來說是非常有益的經歷。我想我在私人執業時,主要客戶是我提到的很多香港大型開發商。因此,那時我為他們提供了很多服務,除了房地產交易需求,還有資本市場交易。那麼,為什麼現在我進入私募股權基金呢?好吧,從某種意義上來說,交易的類型略有不同,對我而言,尤其是債務方面是新事物。因此,總的來說,我認為這也使我進入了不同領域的房地產以及該領域內的公司類型。但總體而言,這非常有趣。我真的很喜歡我目前的角色。

Darren :太好了,那太好了。您在專業房地產公司工作的經驗是否使您改變了看待房地產的方式?

Alicia:從某種意義上說,不是真的,這吸引了我一處房地產,這是無論人類隨著我們的需求如何變化,無論我們是去工作,共同生活還是在家工作,我都認為人類至少在可預見的將來,我們絕對需要頂住屋頂。因此,我認為從某種意義上講,您始終需要房地產,這反過來意味著,無論該產品如何發展和轉化,都將始終需要該產品。我認為從律師事務所到房地產公司並沒有真正改變我的看法。但是進入房地產公司意味著我比成為法律服務提供商要更接近市場。因此,我非常欣賞個人成長和個人專業發展。

Darren :很好。我記得在房地產技術道具技術學院有一陣子,我們和品牌顧問Tracy Ho一起錄製了一段視頻。她說,人們一直忘記的一件事是,房地產與我們的日常生活非常接近。我的意思是,從字面上看,我們生活在一個之中,我們與一個世界互動。人們忘記了它有多激動。而且他一直忘了這個行業,因為很多時候我們只是把它看作是到處都是股票。來來回回。交易,現在是您的,現在是其他人。因此,當您談論自己的想法時,它也讓我想起了那一刻。挺酷的是的那麼,您希望觀眾從該視頻中獲得什麼樣的收穫?

Alicia:關於外賣,我想,嗯,讓我們先談一下市場。因此,我個人認為,大型樞紐將繼續是中國房地產市場的關鍵投資主題。就COVID-19的情況而言,這對中國房地產市場產生了重大影響,但看起來正在復蘇。從長遠來看,也許會加速市場整合。就在中國投資的技巧和竅門而言,對於外國投資者而言,遣返是您應考慮的主要風險。並始終注意對方是誰,並註意自己的土地名稱。而且,由於擔心這聽起來越來越像是對Tianyancha的加法,您可以將Tianyancha作為交易對手盡職調查的第一步。

Darren :天眼cha,如果您聽到了,請給我們廣告費,這太好了。實際上,嗯,我的意思是,就像,我實際上有很多事情想問你,我想也許下次我們將進行長時間的討論或一團糟,因為很多人不了解的事情是為什麼會真正房地產需求,例如不同類型的貸款,甚至我們的附屬項目項目支持技術學院,我想在下一次談論更多。在此之前的事情,如果人們想與您聯繫以找到有關房地產的更多信息,或者您對整個行業有所了解,等等,那麼您如何建議人們找到更多有關您的信息並與您討論它?

Alicia:他們可以通過LinkedIn和Darren給我發消息,如果您可以共享指向我的LinkedIn的鏈接,

Darren :當然,那太好了。是的,我真的希望您下次再參加,因為我認為即使是像最初的十分鐘一樣,我也收穫頗豐。就像哇,這是我們希望在Denzity見解中實現的,每個人都可以分享想法。我們只想知道什麼是最好的投資或最好的見解。因此,我真的想說謝謝大家。我希望觀眾能從中受益匪淺。

Alicia:謝謝Darren 。感謝您的款待。

Darren :好的,直到下一次。下次見。謝謝。

Alicia:下次見!再見

What are your thoughts on this video? Don’t forget to let us know in the comments section.

See you in the next episode! 

Until then, stay home and stay safe.

Building Cities with Ivan Ko | Denzity Insights

Building Cities with Ivan Ko | Denzity Insights

Please enjoy this transcript of Building Cities with Ivan Ko, Chairman of RECAS.

Email: [email protected]

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ivan-ko-497b3938

Welcome to our very first Denzity Insights episode!

One of the key skills you need to have when it comes to real estate investing is to learn how to envision how a city develops over time. We are kickstarting the series with Ivan Ko, Chairman of RECAS. I had met him at a PropTech event in Hong Kong a few years ago. Since then, Ivan has been an advisor to me and has helped me mould what Denzity is today. In this episode, he describes how a real estate developer needs to do on a daily basis, how the audience can understand what it is like to be a real estate developer and why we need more real estate experts.

As it can be difficult to catch some minor errors, transcripts may contain a few typos or inaccuracies.

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Alright, let’s get back to the transcript of the show.

Darren Wong: Hey Ivan, thanks for coming in. 

Ivan Ko: Hey, Darren, how are you? 

Darren Wong: Very good. Very good. Today is a very exciting time for me because as I said before: the whole journey with Denzity started with you. So it’s something that I’ve been waiting for for a long time and then it’s just interesting to have this format to talk to you more about your experience, your whole career and even something that I know you want to tell all the audience about, the real estate sector. 

Ivan Ko: Yeah, I think that’s very flattering to me that you said your journey started from me. And I think it’s good that I can have this chance to kind of not walk through with you, but at the same time, see you grow with your Denzity ideas and also get the fundraise and now get started. I think this is a big time. 

Darren Wong: Oh, yeah. I hope so. 

Ivan Ko: Even though Hong Kong is facing a very tough moment, I think we can all get over this, especially in the real estate market, I think. And in any case, Hong Kong’s real estate market is going to be as popular as it was. So I think you did the right thing, and I do hope that your Denzity can be a global platform instead of just Hong Kong. 

Darren Wong: That’s a lot of—, that’s a lot of stress on me now. But then for the audience who don’t know who you are, would you mind telling the audience more about your background? And also what you do? 

Ivan Ko: Oh, yeah, why not?

I started doing real estate in 1993. And I started in the real estate agency from Beijing. I did that for seven months and then I was headhunted by Beijing developers. Ever since then, I started doing real estate development. I started doing real estate right from the beginning in Beijing, not from Hong Kong, even though  I was in Hong Kong at that time. And then subsequently, I was made a GM of a piece of real estate development company in Beijing and after the whole development—, and that was a big, big opportunity for me. I was young. I think I was only 30 or 32. So that was amazing. And at that time, I realized we were the first group of people doing development in Beijing from outside. So at that time, we had something high. We had been doing this not Soho, but then the previous one of Soho. And then, later on, I started to do real estate development also in Hong Kong with another listed company. 

So that was the path that I did for almost five years: real estate development in Hong Kong and, and also Beijing. Then, later on, I moved on to set up my own real estate finance company, which is a mortgage company I set up in a joint venture with IFC, the World Bank, and Deutsche Bank. At the time, we were doing real estate mortgage, I mean, residential mortgage underwriting business in Beijing, and that was also very pioneering. We’ve been quiet for a few years, but we were preparing everything: the market, the industry and the standards for standard securitizations of mortgages. But even today the securitization law hasn’t come out yet. So basically, we then closed down the business and I moved on to do real estate fund management and things like that. So I have part of my career in real estate development and part of the longer part, the later part of it being real estate finance or real estate fund management. Later on, I set up a joint venture with Macquarie capital doing real estate funds management into Macau. So now yeah, that’s where I am. 

Darren Wong: That’s a long list of things. And then I think that when I met you, you told me a lot more about what you’re doing afterward too and that’s amazing. So to keep them all in the background, right, so I met Ivan through a property tech event like three, four years ago in 2016 or 17’. And I was running around trying to figure it out about property tech and how to do the business. Ivan was the only guy that talked to me afterwards. He had really good questions to ask the panellists. And then, I was just like, now I want to learn more about him, and the more I knew about your background, I was like, holy crap. I was just a junior-level guy that met you and everything. I was like, “Wow, I was talking to one of the pioneers out there.” So it’s something that is interesting, right? Because you talk a lot about your history, how you first started, you know, how you transitioned slowly with different parties and stuff. If you’re thinking back, is there a history? Is there a time where you think that like, that’s the golden time or something that you’re excited about among everything you have done?

Ivan Ko: Oh, well, certainly.  I think it was the best timing because in the year of 93’,

94’ it was just the beginning of foreigners being able to invest in real estate projects in China and via debt companies in China. They don’t have office buildings; they can only brand hotel properties, hotel rooms as their offices, can you imagine? And I still remember at that time when I completed my first pre-sale—, because that was just an empty piece of land and we had to draw and solve the building of the office,  the oil and gas company came to us and they wanted to buy the whole floor. I was talking about just using these drawings to talk about how much the price is and that and then later on when we received the payment, they paid all cash. $20 million, we had to count the cash one by one. 

Darren Wong: Wait, with like two suitcases, holding it and being like.

Ivan Ko: No, the whole room. The whole room was filled with renminbi notes. 

Darren Wong: Really? Wow okay 

Ivan Ko: And so that was very interesting. I still remember that I had to pretend that I didn’t want to sell the property to them. And they were so keen. 

You know at that time I was responsible for marketing and sales. So that was the golden moment. Later on, when we moved to 97’, 98’, the Asian financial crisis, we had a bit of change in the market. Because previously it was the commercial market which was very, very in demand

in Beijing and in other cities in China and then in 98’, 99’ it shifted to residential. It slowly shifted to residential, because at that time people started to have their own savings; they have money and they want to buy their own properties instead of living in a quarter assigned by their

state enterprises. So then the whole market changed, and then the property market in mainland China just took off. So that was the real golden period for almost like 20-30 years. 

Darren Wong: Mmhmm. So after all that, how do you lead back to Hong Kong then? Because like, obviously, you have a real estate development firm in Hong Kong, and others among other many projects you’re doing, how do you lead back to Hong Kong in the end? 

Ivan Ko: Oh, well, in fact, I did five years in the Beijing real estate development company, and then I joined a listed company in Hong Kong. They both have a portfolio in Hong Kong and also a portfolio in mainland China. So I started doing real estate development in Hong Kong, even though I haven’t long stayed in mainland China for ten years, but I still flew to Beijing on a weekly basis for 10 years. Can you imagine?

Darren Wong: Wow, that’s crazy!

Ivan Ko: I was young. And so yeah, every Monday and Tuesday, I flew to Beijing. And then every Friday night I came back. So is very like I always told my friend’s dad I’m doing the Silk Road between Hong Kong and mainland China [laughs].

Darren Wong: [laughs] 

Ivan Ko: Literally all the way back and forth every single week. That must be hectic! That’s I don’t know, like even for me once a month or once every two months I’m tired already. I don’t know how you do that every single week. That’s crazy. 

Ivan Ko: Well, it was very enjoyable. 

Darren Wong: Really? Oh good, that’s great then. 

Ivan Ko: It was very enjoyable yeah. Because when you see the market, when you meet the people, when you know that—, at that time in the year of 94’, 95’, no one knew how to do real estate development in Beijing. We were the first one. And Sun Hung Kai people and Henderson land people, they were there. But also, everyone didn’t know how to do it, including the government officials in Beijing. They don’t know how to do it. So we had to think about how to do it. And then I told my colleagues, I have several Hong Kong colleagues working with me at the time and I told them that “Hey, let’s face this, no one knows how to play this game.” And every day we have to go up to the stage and fight with the contractor, the vendors,  and a couple of officials.

Every day we are being punched, bleeding in the nose and then the next day we have to go up and fight again because no one knows how to do it. So finally, a year later, you will be very, very well versed with what’s going on and how to do it, how to talk to people, what will be prioritized and what should be back in the queue and so it’s very interesting. Very pioneering. 

I feel very excited. 

Darren Wong: That’s something that I want to talk to you about. This whole interview, because a lot of people don’t know what a real estate developer does. And frankly, these are the things in our industry that were like, even before I got into a real estate firm like holy crap, it was not that easy. There’s a lot of things to do and it’s something that I want to do more these kinds of videos and then, you know, for us, right, I think that we can have your whole journey, like a three to five hours video. So easily as something that I will focus on is more about your firm, what do you guys do and everything to give the audience a better picture?

So what’s a typical day for example right, today for you and your team in a real estate development firm?

Ivan Ko: Well, usually every single project, no matter big or small, every one of them, they have problems every day. You never know, sometime in the daytime, you hold your meetings with your colleagues and talk about this working procedure and the drawings, the

variation orders, (variation order is something that you have to amend the drawings, amend the work) and then carry on with the construction and then maybe in the afternoon, you have to meet with the contractor and then, later on, meet the supplier or these creditors and talk about the price and then, later on, you have to meet a government official or banker to talk about the mortgage financing. How are you going to provide a mortgage retail buyer? And then at the end of the night, you might end up with a client. Then you have to meet them because most of the time in real estate development in Beijing or Mainland China, government officials, bankers, vendors, contractors, clients, they all want to meet the general manager of the development company.

If they don’t meet you, they won’t take action. That’s the big difference between doing real estate development in mainland China and in Hong Kong. In Hong Kong, real estate development is very easy. You just call the consultant in and tell them what you want and discuss it with them. And then after the meeting, all the consultants just go to the government liaise with the government department and the government department does not have to see me. Not for one single meeting, no. They just deal with the AP, an architect, and surveyor and things get done. 

It’s very comfortable doing real estate development in Hong Kong and the problems that you face, I mean, those are out of expectation problems. You don’t expect problems, like one day when we were doing the demolition in our site in Beijing on Finance Street, a contractor called us and said, “Oh, we have a problem here.” So then we went down to the site to see what the problem was. And it was an old lady sitting on the caterpillars machine. And she said that she doesn’t want to move so we called the police. 

He said, “No one can ask her to move.” And then finally we gave her some money, and because she thought that we were disturbing her life. (She’s one of his neighbours. So we have to give her what we call 干扰费(ganrao fei) (interference) fee to compensate for the disturbance we have caused to her and her neighbours. So then she went away and we could carry on with our work.

So very interesting every day you have problems pop out and you never know what that problem will be. And that’s my development’s work.

Darren Wong: You make it sound like everything— my life is easy, it’s a lot easier. I thought it was hectic but sounds like you’ve done a lot more. A lot more real problems to deal with compared to me. 

Ivan Ko:  Well, real estate investment is very different. Real estate development is kind of like you have to be on top of the situation every day, and you have to expect anything you don’t expect.

Darren Wong: So this is something that’s interesting, right? Because as a developer, like I see as someone who’s at an early stage, they already see a long term of what’s going on because it’s risk is very high compared to like, my work before in real estate investing where I can be like, “hey, there’s 1000 projects out there. I don’t have to be the early stage,” versus the developer, they take a lot of risk and obviously the reward compensates for everything else. 

So back in the day, right, like, obviously, Beijing or Hong Kong, you know, it’s very easy to see now, but back in the day, obviously, they aren’t as developed. So how do you assess and compare different projects when you’re bidding and stuff like that?

Ivan Ko: Well, we have to always look at where in China, you have to first of all, look at which city, because some cities have a rare, very good market depth. For some of them they don’t. Like Beijing is very good. Shanghai is very good. But when you go to 大朗 (Dalang), or 沉阳 (Shenyang), it’s very different. And the culture, the way they do it, their local practices can be very different. So you have to first of all, understand which city you are focusing on and then whether the market is deep enough, and then how will the government do and whether they are credible or not. And whether you have the relationship there.

As you know, in China doing business in China, you always have to have a good relationship; it’s what they call 关系 (guanxi). Yeah, and or you have a good local partner. So those are the few things. Certainly the normal things here are location, location, location, and market study, things like that. Those are normal, normal things.

Darren Wong: Because I found from hearing it right, even though obviously, the audience are not all with the developers, but then if I’m an investor too, there is some takeaway right away. My head was like, “Hey, you got to understand which city you want to go for.

What’s going on? Who do you know? Do the local players actually understand the culture and opportunities and do you, working with them, actually rely on them to work together as a team?”

So I even find from viewing the audience, they might not be a developer who does stuff, but I think the audience would hopefully learn from that. And for people who are not in the sector, right, how would you explain to them how to understand, to envision that community development, because I think as a developer, you have to really envision what kind of space; how people interact with the space, what kind of things would happen around the neighborhood? So I want to know what you think about that. 

Ivan Ko: For this, that’s very important because it goes along with the first decision. The first decision in real estate development is the most important decision. It’s to buy the land. Which land does one want to buy, and why does one want to buy it? And if that decision was right then everything subsequently will be easy. If the first decision was wrong because you bought the wrong piece of land, no matter how hard working you are, or what remedial measures you take, you’re not going to correct the wrong decision you made in the first place. So, basically, you will have to look at the environment, the neighbourhood, and also all kinds of these building regulations or planning regulations associated with the land.

You will have to imagine, because during the time when you buy the land, it may be an old house or have old properties sitting on land where you have to imagine the future. How are you going to put a beautiful building there and have it be welcomed by your neighborhood, or people that you want. And so the next thing is you have to imagine what you want to do

with this piece of land. So you have to talk with the architect, and talk with several architects, not just one, because one architect can give you some ideas, because architects are very creative. They have done a lot of different projects at the same time so they might be able to give you some ideas of what others are doing, what is the trend, and how you can save money, these kinds of things. So talk to the architect, talk to surveyors, and maybe talk to your competitors. Competitors would also like to tell you their story because they are not doing the same project as you are and because everybody is unique within a location. No two projects are the same, even though they might be neighbored to each other.

So basically, you can have a lot of information coming to you and then you get the feedback to examine this and that. And then finally you come up with what we call the “positioning of your property.” What do you want to build? What’s the image that you want to give? And then what design you want to have. For example, would the composition of the commercial element be together with the residential element, or how would we want the traffic to flow, that sort of thing. 

Sometimes you don’t have the ideas so then you have the architect propose them to you as a developer. So as a developer, being the main core of the value chain, you have a lot of people helping. 

Darren Wong: Mmhmm. That’s good. I think that’s kind of exciting. Thinking about that in my head, like how things are working. And, you know, it’s a lot of things that have components combined together, that is hard to explain. So this is kind of good to give us like an overview. So from all those experiences and a skill you have learned, for example, envisioning the future over the years in the real estate market right, you started from Beijing and Hong Kong and I know there have been other places as well. How do you transfer those skills to other places? Are there any similarities within places like work differences, when you go to different areas to focus on different types of people, and therefore different groups of experts and so on?

Ivan Ko: Well, once you acquire the method and you have done the full cycle then you know how to do it in other countries or another place. Basically, the methodologies are the same, but then in different markets you prioritize different things. For example, in certain markets you prioritize relationships first. Whether you can find the right partner, the right banks, or the agents that will help you, and then in other markets, you start with the asset first. Meaning that you have to find the right piece of land first. And that’s not the rest of it. So if you have different markets, you have different priorities. The second thing is whether you will be able to put together a capable team to help you, that is also very important. Otherwise you wouldn’t be running around resolving problems, which is very difficult. And so, basically, I think, once you have gone through the whole cycle, you know, if there is a project in London or New York or in Japan, Tokyo, you know the way. Sometimes we use top down, that means the analytics goes from the top, macro view and then the micro, and then down to the site and then the neighborhood. Other times we go from the top up. So it all depends on the market. 

Darren Wong: I see. I think that so far I’m getting like a crash course about real estate development. That’s actually pretty interesting. And I only have because I know you’re busy only a couple more questions because something that even in my head, I have to ask you in this format for the audience, right? That’s, you know, I’m sure I said before no audience is going to be a real estate developer, they would be an investor. So what kind of tips and advice would you give to the audience who wants to participate in early stage real estate projects for example, early stage that maybe is you know, like half a year from a CA and stuff like that. What kind of advice do you have for them?

Ivan Ko: Well, always you’ll have to use your eye to see what the property or what the project is. Never do it on paper. Never believe in paperwork because real estate is something that you have to visit the site yourself. Do it many times: daytime, nighttime, in the morning, you’ll find different stories about the neighborhood, about the environment. Maybe you can talk to the neighbors, see what feedback you will get. Sometimes you hear some very old stories, which might be relevant to you.

And sometimes some people might be able to tell you what will happen in the neighborhood in the future. So you’ll have to be almost treating it as your new baby that you’re going to see him or her, every moment when you are free or even when you are not free you still have to look at it and check out this and that. So doing real estate development or real estate investment is different from doing securities or buying bonds, that sort of thing. For those kinds of financial investments, you can do it on paper. But doing real estate investments and development, especially development, you will have to do it on your own by yourself in person. Don’t rely on paperworks. You’ll have to see the real thing, that real situation, the environment. And then the second thing is always be prepared to roll your sleeves and do whatever it requires you to. 

Never be afraid of talking to the contractor or delegate everything to your subordinate to deal with the property agents. Get to the frontline; get the feeling; get the touch, know the details. Sometimes you might have to use your street wisdom. So yeah, a lot of things to learn and no matter how many years in real estate development you have been in, you’ll always learn something new, something you don’t know. So every day you prepare to learn something, or to get to know something that you are not aware of, or you don’t know. So this is very interesting because consumer behavior is always changing. And you have to get a very close touch of what’s going on in the consumer, in your talents, in your target audience. And then at the same time, product design, the building design, it’s always evolving. The use of materials, the space planning, the flow, the mood, that sort of thing. It’s very exciting and I would advise anyone who is always curious, keen to learn and willing to learn, hard working, go into real estate development. This is the most interesting industry, among all others.

Darren Wong: I can feel a lot of passion when I hear you talk about your work. It sounds like, you know, because we’re in the same industry, we know how hard it is, but then it’s very rare to find someone like you that still has so much passion for doing this for so so many years. So that’s something that is very, very good to hear from you. So something that is interesting when you mention about being at the neighborhood, at the site, like you know, how we’re interested in proptech ourselves. So do you think technology such as virtual viewing or drones to check out a neighborhood can help investors understand the investment better, and how far do you think technology is from like, mature so far?

Ivan Ko: Well, I think the technology that is available can help a lot in real estate development because we don’t necessarily need to go to the site. We can fly the drone and look at the progress. I remember when I was doing the peace project in Beijing, we had to rent an office close by so that we could look out from the window and see the progress of the project every day.

So that is one way. It’s very physical, but now, you don’t have to do that. You can have some CCTV or IoT to see what’s going on and check. But at the same time, I think the basic element is the same: that you have to do your own investigation, your due diligence, by site visit by talking to the neighborhood, by talking to the elderly nearby to learn about the old story and things like that. And so basically, technology will help a lot, especially when we have this building information modelling (BIM), which tracks all the changes in design and budget. They are surveyor calculators. And once the architect changes the M&E, fields of quantity can change by themselves. So, these kinds of things can help make the whole process more efficient. 

So technology I think does play a major part in the whole process, but, I will say putting technology into construction and real estate development is also a challenge because this is a very old industry. So as human beings who previously lived in caves, we now have our own buildings. At the same time, the practices, the cultures, it can be difficult to change. So putting in technology into a construction site, or a real estate project can be quite challenging and you have to prepare to kind of educate them and also get them on board to agree with the use. 

Darren Wong: I mean, that’s why we’re here, right? We’re trying to figure this out in Denzity, obviously trying to figure out the whole research part of learning what’s going on out there. So I think this is something that echoes really strongly with what we believe in. So besides BIM, virtual viewing and stuff, like drones, what other technology and property tech, or construction tech that you know or think is gonna impact a lot for the whole real estate industry?

Ivan Ko: Well, most of the time it’s the IoT or the surveillance systems, the facial recognition for property management. Also, robotics being used on construction sites for dangerous, or some very difficult work, where the human cannot get into. So those robotics can be another one. I always imagined that one day we can have a robot to clean the curtain wall. Because cleaning the curtain wall is so dangerous. And if we can have a robot, which can play music or dance while he is cleaning the curtain wall, then people can look at the building and see all this is very interesting. So this kind of thing, I think it will change and it will kind of get to more common use.

Darren Wong: I see. I think that’d be a really good PR actually for you know to drive presale, right? That’ll be a cool kind of scheme. So that’s kind of cool. So I think I said before I know you’re a busy person. I’ve got one last question I have to ask, you know, for myself one day, like compared to today, it’s a lot harder. Is it a lot harder to be a developer and would you recommend people considering to be a developer or would you rather them try different aspects of the real estate sector?

Ivan Ko: I would say being, I mean, joining a developer is the most crucial part of this whole value chain, because as a fund manager, even though they are at the top of this betting chain, they are not the organizer. The only major organizer is the developer, because they have to organize a lot of different resources: the land, the people, the bank, the consumer, the contractors, government officials. They have to deal with many things. So they organize all these together, and then they kind of divide the risks into a different section, and shifts the risk from their own to other parties; each one takes on certain risks, like the architect, the contractor, and then the banker, they bear different risks in the whole development. So once you’ve done the full cycle, then you can comfortably move on to other positions like a fund manager, property agency, whatever, because now you understand the whole thing, and you can move on to set up your own business like a prop tech, density, etc,. Yeah I’d say it’s a very good learning curve.

The developer’s life is very interesting. You bump into different problems or different issues every day. So it’s good. 

Darren Wong: Yeah, like I think that because you and I, we  both know a couple people that aren’t in the real estate industry trying to get into prop tech. And for me, it’s like their learning curve is so much because real estate is not only about tech it’s about the people, about the industry, it’s about the whole machine in the world, and how can you make that one piece that makes everything works? So it’s something that echoes hard too because if I were if I weren’t working in the real estate fund, there’s no way I would even think of Denzity. There’s no way I would even consider that as an option. So something that you know, like it’s coming from you is something that is kind of interesting. So what kind of—, last thing I have, what kind of takeaway do you want the audience to have from this interview?

Ivan Ko: I think that if you have not joined the real estate industry, please join it. It is a very big industry. The value chain and the things that you can do is numerous. I mean, it’s unlimited. And I will say the real estate industry, the longer you stay in the industry, the more projects you’ve done, the better you are. Not like IT where 15 year old students can beat a senior guy and experience doesn’t come too much. But in real estate, the longer you stay, the more experienced you are, it’s better. Especially now when people might live to the age of 120. So, the healthier you are the better but at the same time, I think be prepared to learn things, because the industry is also changing. And so I think the real estate industry, get into it. If you can become an employee of a developer, then yeah, join it. That’s the best start of your career.

Darren Wong: Hmm. I feel like this is not only for development, it’s for investment too, because a lot of people like management, it’s a very big whole sector that the more you’re in you just know more and more because I know a lot of people too, they’ll tell me that like “Oh my first real estate investment wasn’t great at all.” But the more I do it, I know what I want, the more I know what to do. So it’s something that I think is so unique in this industry because the more you know, you know that there’s so much more out there and you just want to be a sponge and learn more and more. So it’s something that I think the audience will appreciate. And if people want to reach out to you to learn more about your work, how would we suggest they find you?

Ivan Ko: Oh well, they can find me through Denzity. Yeah, or they can email me or WhatsApp me. I welcome all kinds of content or connections, especially if you are interested in real estate industry or development, real estate fund management, I can offer some advice or help or whatever it is, I think this industry needs a lot of good people, talented people, and people who are keen to make a successful career.

Darren Wong: I see that’s good. I’ll obviously after this call, I’ll ask you some kind of links and stuff like that for people to reach out to you. And I’ll put everything in the show notes. And then I want to say, Ivan, I think that I want to do a long form in the future, to dive in your journey, because I’m sure there’s a lot more of your stories that you haven’t told me and the audience yet. So something that I really want to know personally, as well. And thanks for the time. I really appreciate it. And I just hope that you come on board next time again for our interview.

Ivan Ko: Yeah, Yeah my pleasure. And also, thanks, Darren, and I think you have a good start. 

Darren Wong: Thank you. 

Ivan Ko: Let’s roll it out. And make this successful. 

Darren Wong]: Yeah, I hope so too. It’s been a while. So thanks, thanks a lot and talk to you next time then, thank you. 

Ivan Ko: Okay, thanks. Bye bye.

===

Darren Wong:嘿,Ivan,謝謝您的光臨。

Ivan Ko:嘿,Darren,你好嗎?

Darren Wong:非常好。很好。今天對我來說是一個非常激動人心的時刻,因為正如我之前所說的,與Denzity的整個旅程始於您。因此,這是我等待了很長時間的事情,然後有趣的是,有這種形成性的想法,可以與您更多地交流您的經驗,您的整個職業生涯,甚至我想告訴所有聽眾,房地產行業。

Ivan Ko:是的,我認為您說自己的旅程是從我開始的,這對我來說很受寵若驚。而且我認為我可以有機會不跟您一起走,這是很好的,但與此同時,看到您隨著您的Denzity想法而成長,並獲得籌款,現在就開始吧。我認為這是一個重要時刻。

Darren Wong:哦,是的。但願如此。

Ivan Ko:儘管香港面臨一個非常艱難的時刻,但我認為我們都可以克服這一困難,特別是在房地產市場。無論如何,香港的房地產市場將一如既往地受歡迎。因此,我認為您做對了,我希望您的Denzity可以成為一個全球性平台,而不僅僅是香港。

Darren Wong:這很多–現在我承受的壓力很大。但是對於那些不知道您是誰的聽眾,您是否願意告訴聽眾更多關於您的背景的信息?還有你做什麼?

Ivan Ko:哦,是的,為什麼不呢?

我從1993年開始從事房地產業務。後來,我從北京進入房地產經紀公司。我做了七個月,然後被北京的開發商獵頭。從那時起,我開始從事房地產開發。我從一開始就在北京而不是從香港開始從事房地產業務,儘管當時我在香港。然後,在整個開發過程中,我成為了北京一家房地產開發公司的總經理,這對我來說是一個巨大的機遇。我曾經年輕。我想我只有30或32歲。所以真是太神奇了。那時,我意識到我們是第一批從外面在北京從事開發工作的人。所以那個時候,我們有很高的期望。我們不是在做Soho,而是在之前的Soho。之後,我又開始與另一家上市公司在香港進行房地產開發。

這就是我將近五年的路:香港,北京的房地產開發。之後,我繼續建立自己的房地產金融公司,這是我與國際金融公司,世界銀行和德意志銀行合資成立的抵押公司。當時,我們在北京從事房地產抵押貸款業務,這也是非常開創性的。我們已經安靜了幾年了,但是我們正在準備一切:市場,行業和抵押貸款標准證券化的標準。但是直到今天,證券化法律仍未出台。所以基本上,我們然後關閉了業務,然後我繼續進行房地產基金管理之類的事情。因此,我的職業生涯是房地產開發,一部分時間較長,而後半部分是房地產金融或房地產基金管理。後來,我與麥格理資本成立了一家合資企業,從事進入澳門的房地產基金管理。所以現在是的,那就是我的位置。

Darren Wong:這是一長串的事情。然後我想,當我遇見你時,你也告訴了我很多關於你事後的事情,這真是令人驚訝。因此,為了讓所有人都能了解背景,沒錯,所以我在三,四年前的2016年或17歲的房地產技術會議上認識了Ivan。我四處奔波,試圖弄清楚有關房地產技術以及如何開展業務的知識。之後,Ivan是唯一與我交談的人。他有很好的問題要問小組成員。我就像,現在,我想學習更多,對你的背景了解得更多,就像是胡扯。我只是一個初中生,遇到了您和所有內容。我當時想,“哇,我正在和一位先驅在談話。”所以這很有趣,對嗎?因為您經常談論自己的歷史,所以您是如何開始的,知道如何與不同的政黨和事物慢慢過渡。如果您回想一下,是否有歷史?您是否有一段時間覺得這是黃金時期或您對所做的一切感到興奮的事情?

Ivan Ko:哦,當然。我認為這是最佳時機,因為在93年,

94’只是外國人能夠在中國房地產項目和通過中國債務公司投資的開始。他們沒有辦公樓。他們只能將酒店物業,酒店房間作為辦公室品牌,您能想像嗎?我還記得當時我完成了第一次預售的時候,因為那隻是一塊空地,我們不得不繪製和解決辦公室的建築,石油和天然氣公司來找我們,他們想買整個地板。我只是在談論使用這些圖紙來談論價格是多少,然後當我們收到付款時,他們支付了所有現金。2,000萬美元,我們必須一一計算現金。

Darren Wong:像兩個手提箱一樣[舉起手臂],握著它,就像[放下手]。

Ivan Ko:不,整個房間。整個房間裡滿是人民幣紙幣。

Darren Wong:真的嗎?哇好

Ivan Ko:所以這很有趣。我仍然記得我不得不假裝自己不想將房產賣給他們。而且他們很乾淨。您知道當時我負責市場營銷和銷售。這就是黃金時刻。後來,當我們轉移到亞洲金融危機的97’,98’時,我們的市場發生了一些變化。因為以前是非常需求的商業市場在北京和中國其他城市,然後在98英尺,99英尺處轉移到居住區。它慢慢地轉移到了住宅上,因為那時人們開始有了自己的積蓄。他們有錢,他們想購買自己的財產,而不是住在他們分配的四分之一

國有企業。因此整個市場發生了變化,然後中國大陸的房地產市場開始騰飛。所以那是差不多20至30年的真正黃金時期。

Darren Wong:嗯。那麼,畢竟,您如何回到香港?因為,顯然,您在香港有一家房地產開發公司,而您正在執行的其他眾多項目中,您到底如何返回香港?

Ivan Ko:哦,事實上,我在北京房地產開發公司工作了五年,然後加入了香港的一家上市公司。他們在香港和中國大陸都有投資組合。因此,即使我已經在中國大陸待了很長時間了,但我還是開始在香港從事房地產開發工作,但我仍然每週10天都飛往北京。你可以想像?

Darren Wong:哇,這太瘋狂了!

Ivan Ko:我還年輕。是的,每個星期一和星期二,我都會飛往北京。然後每個星期五晚上我回來。就像我一直告訴我朋友的父親,我正在做一條介於香港和中國大陸之間的絲綢之路[笑]。

Darren Wong::[笑]

Ivan Ko:從字面上看,每週一次。那一定很忙!那是我不知道的,就像每個月一次或每兩個月一次對我來說,我已經累了。我不知道你每星期怎麼做。太瘋狂了。

Ivan Ko:嗯,這非常愉快。

Darren Wong:真的嗎?噢,那太好了。

Ivan Ko:是的,非常愉快。因為當您看到市場時,當您遇見人們時,當您知道時–在94年,95年的那一年,沒有人知道如何在北京進行房地產開發。我們是第一個。在亨德森的一些香港人沒有土地。而且,每個人都不知道該怎麼做,包括北京的政府官員。他們不知道該怎麼做。所以我們必須考慮如何做。然後我告訴罪犯,當時我有幾位香港同事與我一起工作,我告訴他們:“嘿,讓我們面對現實,沒人會玩這個遊戲。”每天,我們必須走上舞台,與承包商,供應商和幾個官員打架。

每天我們都受到重創,鼻子流血,然後第二天,我們不得不上去再次戰鬥,因為沒人知道怎麼做。所以,最後,一年後,您將非常了解發生的事情,如何做,如何與人交談,將要優先處理的事情以及應該排在隊列中的內容,因此這非常有趣。非常開拓。

我感到非常興奮。

Darren Wong:我想和您談談這一點。整個採訪,因為很多人不知道房地產開發商的工作。坦率地說,這就是我們行業中的事情,甚至在我進入像垃圾一樣的房地產公司之前,難道不是那麼容易嗎?有很多事情要做,我想通過這些視頻來做更多的事情,然後,對於我們來說,對,我認為我們可以像三到五個小時的視頻一樣完成您的整個旅程。我要重點關注的事情很輕鬆,那就是更多關於您的公司,你們的工作以及所有可以給聽眾帶來更好印象的事情。

那麼今天對於您和您的團隊在房地產開發公司來說是典型的一天。

Ivan Ko:嗯,通常每個項目,無論大小,每個項目每天都有問題。您永遠不會知道,在白天的某個時間,您會與同事舉行會議並談論此工作程序和圖紙,

變更單,(變更單是您必須修改圖紙,修改工程的內容),然後繼續進行施工,然後也許在下午,您必須與承包商會面,然後再與供應商會面或債權人並討論價格,然後您必須與政府官員或銀行家見面談論抵押融資。您將如何提供抵押零售買家。然後在深夜,您可能會遇到一個客戶。然後,您必須與他們會面,因為在北京或中國大陸的房地產開發中,大多數時候,政府官員,銀行家,賣方,承包商,客戶,他們都想見見開發公司的總經理。

如果他們不認識你,他們將不會採取行動。這是在中國大陸和香港進行房地產開發的最大區別。在香港,房地產開發非常容易。您只需致電顧問,告訴他們您想要什麼並與他們討論。會議結束後,所有顧問都隨便向政府部門請教政府,政府部門不必見我。不是一次會議,不是。他們只是與AP,建築師和測量師打交道,事情就完成了。

在香港進行房地產開發非常舒適,您遇到的問題(我的意思是,這些問題超出了預期)。您不會遇到問題,例如有一天我們在北京金融街的工地進行拆遷時,一個承包商打電話給我們,說:“哦,我們這裡有問題。”因此,我們去了現場查看問題所在。那是一個坐在毛毛蟲機器上的老太太。她說她不想搬家,所以我們打電話給警察。

他說:“沒有人可以要求她移動。”最後我們給了她一些錢,因為她認為我們正在打擾她的生活。(她是他的鄰居之一。因此,我們必須給她提供我們所謂的干擾費(ganrao fei),以補償我們對她和她的鄰居造成的干擾。於是她走了,我們可以繼續進行下去。

每天都很有趣,您會遇到很多問題,而您永遠都不知道問題會是什麼。這就是我的發展工作。

Darren Wong:您的聲音聽起來就像我的一切—我的生活很輕鬆,很容易。我以為這很忙,但聽起來您做得還很多。與我相比,還有很多實際問題需要解決。

Ivan Ko:嗯,房地產投資是非常不同的。房地產開發有點像您必須每天掌握最重要的情況,並且您必須期望您沒有想到的任何事情。

Darren Wong:這很有趣,對嗎?因為作為開發人員,就像我所處的早期階段一樣,他們已經看到了正在發生的事情的長期情況,因為與我之前從事房地產投資的工作相比,風險很高,例如:嘿,那裡有1000個項目。我不必早於開發階段。”與開發人員相比,他們承擔著很大的風險,顯然,獎勵可以彌補其他所有問題。

所以回想起來,很明顯,就像北京或香港一樣,現在很容易看到,但是回想起來,它們顯然不那麼發達。那麼,當您競標之類的東西時,您如何評估和比較不同的項目呢?

Ivan Ko:好吧,我們必須始終關注中國的哪個地方,首先必須關注哪個城市,因為有些城市的市場深度非常罕見。對於其中一些人而言,他們不是。像北京很好。上海很好。但是,當您去大朗(Dalang)或沉陽(Shenyang)時,情況就大不一樣了。而且文化,他們做事的方式,他們當地的做法可能大不相同。因此,您必須首先了解您所關注的城市,然後了解市場是否足夠深,然後了解政府將如何做以及它們是否可信。以及您是否在那兒有關係。

如您所知,在中國做生意在中國,您總是必須保持良好的關係;這就是他們所說的“關係”。是的,或者您有一個很好的本地夥伴。這些就是幾件事。當然,這裡的正常情況是位置,位置,位置和市場研究等。那些是正常的,正常的事情。

Darren Wong:因為我從正確的聽覺中發現,儘管很明顯,聽眾並不都與開發人員在一起,但是如果我也是投資者,那麼馬上就會有收穫。我的腦袋就像:“嘿,你必須了解你想去的城市。

這是怎麼回事?你認識誰當地球員真的了解文化和機會嗎,您與他們合作,是否真的依靠他們作為一個團隊共同努力?”

因此,我什至從觀眾的視野中發現,他們可能不是做事的開發人員,但我認為觀眾有望從中學到東西。對於不在該領域的人來說,是的,您將如何向他們解釋如何理解,以設想社區發展,因為我認為作為開發人員,您必須真正設想什麼樣的空間;人們如何與空間互動,附近會發生什麼事情?所以我想知道您對此有何看法。

Ivan Ko:這很重要,因為它與第一個決定一起進行。房地產開發的首要決定是最重要的決定。是要買土地。一個人要買哪一塊土地,為什麼要買?如果這個決定是正確的,那麼隨後的一切將變得容易。如果由於購買了錯誤的土地而做出的第一項決定是錯誤的,那麼無論您的工作多麼努力或採取的補救措施是什麼,您都不會糾正最初做出的錯誤決定。因此,基本上,您將必須查看環境,周圍環境以及與土地相關的所有這些建築法規或規劃法規。

您將不得不想像,因為在您購買土地的過程中,它可能是一棟舊房子,或者在您必須想像未來的土地上坐著一些舊財產。您打算如何在其上放置一幢美麗的建築,並受到鄰里或想要的人的歡迎。因此,接下來的一件事就是您必須想像自己想做什麼

與這片土地。因此,您必須與建築師交談,並與數位建築師交談,而不僅僅是一位建築師,因為一位建築師可以給您一些想法,因為建築師很有創造力。他們同時完成了許多不同的項目,因此他們可能會給您一些有關其他人正在做什麼,趨勢是什麼以及如何省錢的想法。因此,請與建築師交談,與測量師交談,或者與您的競爭對手交談。競爭對手也想告訴您他們的故事,因為他們沒有像您一樣做同樣的項目,並且每個人在一個地點都是唯一的。即使兩個項目可能彼此相鄰,也沒有相同的項目。

因此,基本上,您會收到很多信息,然後您將獲得反饋來檢查這一點。最後,您提出了我們所謂的“您的財產位置”。您要建造什麼?您要給的形像是什麼?然後您想要擁有什麼設計。例如,諸如此類的事情是將商業元素與住宅元素組合在一起,還是我們希望交通如何流動。

有時您沒有創意,於是讓架構師將它們作為開發人員推薦給您。因此,作為開發人員,作為價值鏈的主要核心,您需要很多人的幫助。

Darren Wong:嗯。非常好。我認為這很令人興奮。想著這件事,就像事情是如何進行的。而且,您知道,很多東西將組件組合在一起,這很難解釋。因此,這給我們提供了一個概覽。因此,從您所學到的所有經驗和技巧中,例如,展望房地產市場多年的未來,您是從北京和香港開始的,我知道還有其他地方。您如何將這些技能轉移到其他地方?當您去不同的領域專注於不同類型的人,從而導致不同的專家組等等時,工作差異之類的地方是否存在相似之處?

Ivan Ko:嗯,一旦您掌握了該方法並且完成了整個週期,您就會知道如何在其他國家或其他地方進行此操作。基本上,方法是相同的,但是在不同的市場中,您會優先考慮不同的事情。例如,在某些市場中,您首先要優先考慮關係。無論您是找到合適的合作夥伴,合適的銀行,還是可以為您提供幫助的代理商,然後在其他市場中,都首先要從資產開始。這意味著您必須首先找到合適的土地。這還不是全部。因此,如果您擁有不同的市場,那麼您將擁有不同的優先級。第二件事是您是否能夠組建一支有能力的團隊來幫助您,這也很重要。否則,您將無法解決問題,這非常困難。因此,基本上,我認為,一旦您經歷了整個週期,便知道,如果在倫敦,紐約或日本,東京有項目,您就會知道。有時,我們使用自上而下的方法,這意味著分析從頂部,宏觀視圖,微觀視圖開始,然後再到站點再到附近。其他時候我們從頭開始。因此,這完全取決於市場。

Darren Wong:我知道。我認為,到目前為止,我正在獲得有關房地產開發的速成課程。這實際上很有趣。我只是因為我知道您僅在忙幾個問題,因為即使在我腦海中,我也必須以這種格式向聽眾問你,對嗎?那就是,你知道,我確定我說過,在沒有任何觀眾成為房地產開發商之前,他們將成為投資者。因此,您會向想要參與早期房地產項目的聽眾提供什麼樣的提示和建議,例如,您可能知道的早期階段,例如從CA獲得半年的服務,以及諸如此類的事情。您對他們有什麼建議?

Ivan Ko:好吧,總是需要用眼睛觀察什麼是財產或項目是什麼。切勿在紙上做。永遠不要相信文書工作,因為房地產是您必須自己訪問該站點的東西。要做很多次:白天,晚上,早晨,您會發現有關社區和環境的不同故事。也許您可以與鄰居交談,看看您會得到什麼反饋。有時您會聽到一些非常古老的故事,可能與您有關。

有時有些人也許可以告訴您將來在附近發生的事情。因此,您幾乎必須將其視為要與他或她見面的新嬰兒,每當您有空或什至沒有空時,您仍然必須查看一下並檢查一下,那。因此,進行房地產開發或房地產投資與進行證券或購買債券不同。對於這類金融投資,您可以在紙上進行。但是,在進行房地產投資和開發(尤其是開發)時,您必須親自親自完成。不要依賴文書工作。您將必須看到真實的事物,真實的情況和環境。然後,第二件事總是準備好捲起袖子,做任何您需要做的事情。

不用擔心與承包商交談或將一切委託給您的支持以與房地產經紀人打交道。到達第一線;體會到那種感覺;得到聯繫,了解細節。有時您可能不得不運用街頭智慧。所以,是的,有很多東西要學,無論您從事房地產開發工作了多少年,都將永遠學習新的東西,這是未知的。因此,每天您都準備學習一些東西,或者去了解一些您不知道或不知道的東西。因此,這很有趣,因為消費者行為總是在變化。而且,您必須非常了解消費者,人才和目標受眾的情況。同時,產品設計,建築設計也在不斷發展。材料的使用,空間規劃,流程,氣氛等等。這是非常令人興奮的,我會向那些總是好奇,熱衷於學習,願意學習,努力工作,從事房地產開發的人提供建議。這是最有趣的行業。

Darren Wong:當我聽到您談論您的工作時,我會感到非常的熱情。您知道,這聽起來像是因為我們處於同一個行業,所以我們知道自己有多艱辛,但是很難找到像您這樣的人這麼多年仍然對此充滿熱情的人。因此,您的來信真是太好了。因此,當您提到在附近,在現場時,就像您知道的那樣,我們感興趣的是我們對道具技術的興趣。那麼,您認為虛擬觀看或無人機等技術可以幫助投資者更好地了解投資嗎?您認為技術到目前為止已經成熟了多少?

Ivan Ko:好吧,我認為可用的技術可以對房地產開發有很大幫助,因為我們不一定要去現場。我們可以飛無人機,看看進度。我記得當我在北京進行和平項目時,我們不得不在附近租一個辦公室,這樣我們才能從窗戶向外看,每天都能看到該項目的進展。

這是一種方法。這是非常物理的,但是現在,您不必這樣做。您可以使用一些CCTV或IoT來查看發生的情況並進行檢查。但同時,我認為基本要素是相同的:您必須進行自己的調查,盡職調查,通過與鄰里交談的實地考察,與附近的老人交談以了解舊的故事和像這樣的東西。因此,基本上,技術將有很大幫助,尤其是當我們擁有此建築信息模型(BIM)來跟踪設計和預算的所有變化時。他們是驗船師計算器。並且,一旦架構師更改了M&E,則數量字段可以自行更改。因此,這些事情可以幫助提高整個過程的效率。

因此,我認為技術確實在整個過程中起著重要作用,但是,我想說將技術應用於建築和房地產開發也是一項挑戰,因為這是一個非常古老的行業。因此,作為以前居住在山洞中的人類,我們現在擁有自己的建築物。同時,實踐,文化可能很難改變。因此,將技術應用於建築工地或房地產項目可能會非常具有挑戰性,因此您必須準備對它們進行某種程度的教育,並讓他們接受其使用才能達成共識。

Darren Wong:我的意思是,這就是為什麼我們在這裡,對吧?我們試圖在Denzity中解決這個問題,顯然是想弄清楚整個研究部分,以了解正在發生的事情。因此,我認為這確實與我們的信念很相呼應。因此,除了BIM之外,虛擬查看和內容(如無人機),您知道或認為的其他技術和房地產技術或建築技術也會對我們產生重大影響整個房地產行業?

Ivan Ko:嗯,大多數情況下是物聯網或監視系統,即用於物業管理的面部識別。另外,機器人被用在建築工地上,人類無法進入的危險或非常困難的工作。因此,那些機器人技術可以成為另一種。我一直以為,有一天我們可以擁有一個機器人來清潔幕牆。因為清潔幕牆非常危險。如果我們有一個機器人,他可以在他清潔窗簾牆的同時播放音樂或跳舞,那麼人們可以看著建築物,這一切都非常有趣。因此,我認為這種事情將會改變,並且會變得更加普遍。

Darren Wong:我知道。我認為這實際上是一個非常好的PR,因為您知道要進行預售,對嗎?那將是一個很酷的計劃。所以這很酷。所以我想我在我知道你是一個忙碌的人之前就說過。我還有最後一個問題要問,你知道,有一天,和今天相比,今天要困難得多。成為開發商會難嗎?您會推薦那些考慮成為開發商的人嗎?還是您希望他們嘗試房地產領域的不同方面?

Ivan Ko [33:06]:我的意思是,加入開發商是整個價值鏈中最關鍵的部分,因為作為基金經理,即使他們處於投注鏈的頂端,不是組織者。唯一的主要組織者是開發商,因為他們必須組織許多不同的資源:土地,人民,銀行,消費者,承包商,政府官員。他們必須處理許多事情。因此,他們將所有這些組織在一起,然後將風險分為不同的部分,並將風險從自己的風險轉移到其他各方。每個人都要承擔一定的風險,例如建築師,承包商,然後是銀行家,他們在整個開發過程中承擔著不同的風險。因此,一旦完成了整個週期,您就可以輕鬆地升任其他職位,例如基金經理,房地產經紀等,因為現在您已經了解了整個過程,就可以像創業公司一樣建立自己的企業了。道具技術,密度等。是的,我想說這是一個很好的學習過程。

開發人員的生活非常有趣。您每天都會遇到不同的問題或不同的問題。很好

Darren Wong:是的,就像我認為,因為您和我,我們都認識了一對不從事房地產行業的人,他們試圖進入道具技術領域。對我來說,就像他們的學習曲線是如此之多,因為房地產不僅關乎技術,關乎人,關乎行業,關乎世界上的整個機器,以及如何製造一件使一切正常的作品?因此,這也引起了強烈反響,因為如果我不在房地產基金中工作,那我什至無法想到Denzity。我什至沒有辦法將其視為一種選擇。因此,您所知道的東西(例如來自您的東西)是一種有趣的東西。那麼,我的最後一件事是,您希望聽眾從這次採訪中獲得什麼樣的外賣?

Ivan Ko:我認為,如果您還沒有加入房地產行業,請加入。這是一個很大的行業。價值鍊和您可以做的事情很多。我的意思是,它是無限的。我會說,房地產行業,您在該行業停留的時間越長,您完成的項目越多,您的狀況就越好。不像IT那樣,15歲的學生可以擊敗高年級學生,而且經驗也不會太多。但是在房地產領域,您停留的時間越長,您越有經驗,那就越好。尤其是在人們可能活到120歲的現在。因此,您越健康越好,但與此同時,我認為準備學習一些東西,因為行業也在發生變化。因此,我認為房地產行業會參與其中。如果您可以成為開發人員的僱員,那麼可以加入。那是您職業生涯的最佳開端。

Darren Wong:嗯。我覺得這不僅是為了發展,也是為了投資,因為很多人都喜歡管理,這是一個非常大的整體領域,您所處的位置越來越多,因為我也認識很多人,所以越來越,他們會告訴我,例如“哦,我的第一筆房地產投資根本不算什麼。”但是我做得越多,我就知道我想要什麼,我就越知道該做什麼。因此,我認為這在這個行業中是獨一無二的,因為您知道的越多,您知道那裡的東西就更多,而您只是想成為一塊海綿並學到更多。所以我認為觀眾會喜歡的。如果人們想與您聯繫以了解有關您的工作的更多信息,我們如何建議他們找到您?

Ivan Ko:哦,他們可以通過Denzity找到我。是的,或者他們可以給我發電子郵件或WhatsApp。我歡迎各種內容或聯繫,尤其是如果您對房地產行業或發展,房地產基金管理感興趣,我可以提供一些建議或幫助或其他內容,我認為該行業需要很多優秀人才,人和渴望成功事業的人。

Darren Wong:我認為那很好。顯然,在電話會議之後,我會問您類似的鏈接和諸如此類的內容,以便其他人與您聯繫。我會把所有內容都放在展示筆記中。然後我想說,伊凡,我想我想在將來做一個長篇大論,潛入您的旅程,因為我敢肯定您還有更多的故事是您沒有告訴我的,聽眾呢。我也很想親自了解一些東西。並感謝您的時間。我真的很感激。我只希望您下次再來接受我們的採訪。

Ivan Ko:是的,是我的榮幸。另外,謝謝,達倫,我認為您有一個良好的開端。

Darren Wong:謝謝。

Ivan Ko:讓我們開始吧。並取得成功。

Darren Wong:是的,我也希望如此。有一陣子了。非常感謝,非常感謝,下次再與您交談,謝謝。

Ivan Ko:好的,謝謝。再見。

The Ultimate Guide To Be A Smart And Successful Real Estate Investor

Download our ebook: Become A Smart Real Estate Investor Like A Professional

Did you know most people take 6 to 9 months to find a real estate project worth investing in? For example, professional real estate investors look at 1,000+ projects per year but end up making 1-3 investments.

If you want to be successful in real estate investing, learn how to invest and achieve returns like the professionals. 

We at Denzity have put together an eBook to guide you along your real estate investment journey. Before you look for real estate investment, have a think:

  • Why do you want to invest?
  • Where do you want to invest?
  • What are you looking to achieve?

Get the eBook  https://bit.ly/38uqHEE

The Experts We Need In The Digital Age Real Estate Ecosystem

The Experts We Need In The Digital Age Real Estate Ecosystem

A couple of months ago, we shared Real Estate Investment Insights And Access A Global Community Of Experts,” “Find The Right Experts,” and “The Forces That Will Shape The Future Of Real Estate Investing.” Those posts contain our view on how technology transforms real estate experts’ roles and their impact on the world of real estate investing.

Today, we want to tell you more about the real estate experts we at Denzity look forward to working with – think of this as our Wishlist

The digital age experts 
As we enter an era of fast-paced digitization, it is hard to predict the outlook of the real estate sector. Growing uncertainties on how technology will shape the real estate industry started with tech companies, like Zillow and Airbnb, which disrupted their sub-market inside the real estate sector.

While real estate experts fear what big disruptor is next, digital-age experts are ready to embrace and adapt to new technologies that improve their performance and service to customers. Change is inevitable: accept that the old ways of doing business might not work and focus on integrating technology so that you don’t fall behind and miss opportunities.

The core values of world-class experts 
As the world becomes more competitive, experts have curated a leading position to deliver excess value compared with their competitors. As their top priority is to exceed customer expectations, they place the needs of each customer above their own.

Having worked with many experts around the world, we’ve identified eight key qualities they tend to have:

  1. Consistent: Stay motivated and focused on the energy to go above and beyond.
  2. Disciplined: Focus on achieving your client’s goals, however difficult they may be.
  3. Trustworthiness: Make a promise and work towards upholding the highest work ethic.
  4. Dedication: Deliver detailed and well-thought-out results for your clients.
  5. Selflessness: Share your knowledge and experience to build meaningful relationships.
  6. Creative: Demonstrate deep knowledge of their domain and produce creative solutions to solve problems.
  7. Critical: Learning always like a beginner and improvise where and when needed.
  8. Passionate: Delivering value in every response you receive.

These are the types of attributes we at Denzity are looking for in real estate experts.

Our 2020 Wishlist 

As mentioned in Year-End Review 2019”, our top priority in 2020 is to broaden the pool of excellent, reliable insights directly from experts (real estate agents/brokers, institutional firms, and transactional advisors) helps address real estate enthusiasts’ uncertainties and frustrations with market research, sourcing experts & projects, and conducting due diligence in real estate investing.

As we station in Hong Kong, we start by focusing on the topics that Hong Kong real estate enthusiasts are interested in. Topics such as:

  • Real estate market (mainly the UK, Canada, the US, Japan, and Southeast Asia)
  • Property exhibitions held in Hong Kong
  • Real estate fractional ownership (crowdfunding, P2P lending, STOs)
  • PropTech
  • Feng Shui
  • And many more.

We strongly believe that building this ecosystem, which encourages contribution and transparency within the real estate industry, can speed up learning and provide better clarity for everyone involved.
If you are interested to join as one of the Denzity Experts, you can email us at [email protected]

We looking forward to speaking further. 

Above and beyond,

Darren
Co-founder, Denzity

12 steps of the real estate investing process you need to know

Real Estate Investment Process

Successful real estate investment means you understand the investment process inside out. We’ve created a 12-step flow chart of the real estate investment process. You can download by clicking on this link: https://bit.ly/2R2QpJl 

Education

  • Learn about the fundamentals of real estate
  • Understand how the economy affects the real estate market
  • Form strategies and plan around your investment goal

Market research

  • Take time to understand a specific niche market
  • Surround yourself with like-minded real estate enthusiasts
  • Read multiple market reports

Sourcing experts

  • Find the right experts with the right domain
  • Be clear on what you need
  • Understand their scope and fees before engaging experts

Sourcing projects

  • Find comparables within the area
  • Drill down into the details
  • Keep track of your findings

Conducting due diligence

  • Don’t interpret the findings and results
  • Keep track on the progress with checklists
  • Check with experts regularly and see if they spot red flags

Fundraising

  • Prepare a clear and detailed business plan for investors
  • Make sure you are aligned with shareholder expectations
  • Be transparent about the potential risks

Bidding on projects

  • Communicate clearly on your terms
  • Get advice from your experts on your terms
  • Follow the steps during the transaction process

Financing

  • Source multiple options before committing
  • Assess how the financing terms affect the project
  • Maximize your risk-reward tolerance for leverage

Negotiating

  • Ensure your agent/broker is acting in your best interest
  • Be patience and disciplined during negotiations
  • If something doesn’t feel right, protect your interest by taking the time to evaluate. If not, you can always walk away

Transacting & closing

  • Make sure the fund flow is clear
  • Ensure all agreements are well-documented
  • Make sure the experts acknowledge the fund transfer

Managing the property/asset

  • Appoint experts with the right experience
  • Build a healthy relationship with your tenants
  • Keep track of your performance

Selling

  • Get advice from experts on the price point
  • Do your research to find the best time to sell
  • Find out how other similar and nearby projects’ marketing effort

If you are clear on these steps, you can find the property of your dreams without wasting precious time and effort. We will layout more detail for each step in the future.

Do you find this tip helpful? What real estate tips would you like to know?  Please share with us in the comments below.

Year-End Review 2019

We have spent some time reflecting on our journey and want to share our exciting plans for 2020.

2019 is almost over, and we are only a couple of weeks away from turning 1-year old (Woohoo!). We want to thank everyone who has encouraged and supported us along this journey. We have spent some time reflecting on our journey and want to share our exciting plans for 2020.

At first, we set out to build a comprehensive real estate fractional ownership database worldwide. By aggregating hundreds of real estate fractional ownership platforms scattered worldwide, our portal was designed for you to find everything in one place and in an organized manner to streamline your research and due diligence process before investing in real estate fractional ownership. You can get a better grasp of the industry landscape and spot opportunities easier and faster. We were confident that our platform would become a key enabler in this sector. 

However, after launching our beta and getting feedback, we realized that our platform has yet to establish an essential element: forming a close-knit community of real estate enthusiasts and real estate experts by encouraging contribution and transparency. Community engagement enables deep, meaningful relationships to build trust and confidence.  Having a pool of excellent, reliable insights directly from experts (real estate agents/brokers, institutional firms, and transactional advisors) helps address your uncertainties and frustrations with market research, sourcing experts & projects, and conducting due diligence in real estate investing. This access can speed up your learning and provide you better clarity for your real estate exploration.

This “Aha” moment led us to launch the Denzity Forum last month with a handful of users and experts. Not only that, users found the answers useful, the experts found the information exchange meaningful! So, we have decided to expand our scope from real estate fractional ownership to include more segments of the real estate sector. Our top priority in 2020 is to broaden this community by empowering a cosmopolitan environment that gives you access to a growing range of insights and projects directly from experts worldwide. We believe this direction will significantly benefit you and the real estate sector worldwide in the long run. 

We are excited about next year! If you want to find real estate insights, find potential real estate projects, or connect with link-minded real estate enthusiasts and real estate experts, then our platform can help you to achieve your goal. 

Find more about the forum here: https://forum.denzity.io/topic/130/year-end-review-2019

Wish you a Happy Holidays and talk to you again in 2020,

Darren

Co-founder, Denzity

3 Biggest Technology Trends The Real Estate Sector Must Embrace

3 Biggest Technology Trends The Real Estate Sector Must Embrace

We recently shared PropTech: Past, Present, and Future and The Forces That Will Shape The Future of Real Estate Investing, our view on how PropTech could impact the real estate sector. Today, we want to share our thoughts on three technological trends the real estate sector will need to embrace. Are you ready? Let’s dive in! 

Market research 
Real estate market research has typically been a tedious and time-consuming process, which is why companies like CoStarReal Capital Analytics, and Realinflo have spawned to utilize technology to provide investors with insights. Social listening, AI, and big data will play a significant role in PropTech companies to compile and deliver tailored analysis to their customers. For example, Realinflo has compiled the largest and most up-to-date database of leases in Hong Kong over the last 2 years.

Sourcing projects 
As the number of online real estate portals, such as ZillowRedfin, and Spacious have spawned for investors to find residential properties online, the vast array of offerings in different real estate types serves to meet a diversity of investor demand. It’s only a matter of time before investors access a single portal to access all types and sizes of real estate opportunities around the world. If you are a real estate broker and not utilizing these portals, you are going to miss out!

Fundraising projects 
Real estate firms that have embraced the new ways to fundraise (e.g. real estate fractional ownership) are leading the wave of technological and regulatory advancement in real estate. Leaders such as Property PartnerBlend Network, and iFunded are providing investors with access to a broader range of projects with more flexible contribution amounts. Owning a fraction of a fancy hotel or a beautiful vineyard with a couple of thousand dollars? Count me in! 

The Missing Piece 
While tons of companies are working on different problems within the real estate investment process, nobody is working on bridging the gap bring these real estate portals together. Why is it important? Investors often shy away from the fragmented and complex real estate industry – known to be costly, inefficient, and scattered. A single portal would serve and evolve around the needs of its core user base of everyday investors.

Someone needs to address the huge pain point with real estate investment: streamlining the investor’s journey from a matter of weeks down to a few days.

We at Denzity have the answer. 

The solution is to act as the glue – collaborating with different partners (such as real estate databases, project providers, and experts) to enhance the investor’s experience and allow investors to have better-informed decisions throughout their exploration based on their criteria. By having access to this ecosystem, real estate investors can explore the world of real estate investing all in one place effortlessly and unlock their full potential.  

What is your biggest pain point? What innovation do you hope to see more of within the real estate sector? Let us know in the comments below.

Above and beyond,

Darren
Co-founder, Denzity

Top 5 topics on real estate investing in Germany

This week, we want to share with you the top five topics on real estate investing in Germany from our community.

Read more: https://forum.denzity.io/tags/germany

1. Can a foreigner buy property in Germany?
Read more: https://bit.ly/38aEhO1

2. Can a non-EU citizen buy property in Germany?
Read more: https://bit.ly/2sQxHMF

3. Is this the right time to buy property in Germany?
Read more: https://bit.ly/2OU5qx9

4. How much does a property manager charge for an apartment Munich [Germany]?
Read more: https://bit.ly/2YsnMbN

5. What’s the leasing term like for residential units in Munich [Germany]?
Read more: https://bit.ly/2Lty1ar

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3 Key Factors That Drive The Real Estate Market

Before you start looking into specific real estate investments, you must understand some key factors that might affect your decision.  So, we think it would be a great idea to give you a quick reminder before starting your search. 

The Economy
The real estate market is closely linked with the economic cycle. Even if the property is sound, your investment (at least on a mark-to-market basis) might be dragged by economic factors. During the economic downturn, there tend to be some negative effects, such as the unemployment rate rises, and consumption level decreases. These combined might cause risks to your investment.

Government Policies
Government policies affect the economy and influence (both local and foreign) investors’ sentiment. During political instability, people might delay their purchases or sales to wait for the certainty of the directions and the policy implications. Tax credits, deductions, and subsidies are some of the ways that policy may affect your investment.

Supply and demand
Population demographics affect how real estate is priced and what type of properties are in demand. Additionally, social and cultural aspects might affect different markets in certain areas. Being aware of these trends can help you to think about your investment strategy.

All these factors are intertwined and it’s all about timing. Understanding the connection can help you to conduct a better evaluation of potential investments. If you are uncertain about what you want, speak to real estate experts! They can deliver the knowledge and insights you need to fast track your search. 

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Weekly Digest: Top 5 topics on real estate investing in Japan

This week, we want to share with you the top five topics on real estate investing in Japan from our community.

  1. How would the gambling license affect the Japan hotel market?
    Read more: https://bit.ly/33ulIB8
  2. What’s the process for foreigners to buy Japanese houses?
    Read more: https://bit.ly/2R37rZA
  3. Which area in Kyoto [Japan] should I look for a vacation home that is also close to the train station?
    Read more: https://bit.ly/34vhr1n
  4. How much tax should I pay when I sell my condo [Japan]?
    Read more: https://bit.ly/37Qteta
  5. Would you suggest investing in Japan car parks?
    Read more: https://bit.ly/33BeueJ